Author Topic: Adding more electric points / wiring help? (Read 2596 times)

Cunning Plan · « **on:** September 27, 2010, 09:08:13 am »

Could you guys give me your opinion on this please. This is the exsisting setup for power going to the outhouse (which is being converted into an office if you missed that

).

I'd like to run some wiring so I have more electric sockets to run computers etc, but I am conscious that there is currently only one big fat wire from the main house fuse box to the outhouse feeding it and I don't want to over load that wire - or does it matter?

I know the cable coming into the house is just one giant one and that feeds loads of sockets which must run to 1000s of amps, so is one big fat wire all you need, which is then split many times?

What is the proper way of achieving this?

ianjpage · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2010, 09:31:02 am »

what rated fuse / circuit breaker is on the feed to the outhouse sockets?

also does the lighting in outhouse have own feed or does it come off same wire?

Andy · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2010, 09:44:08 am »

Hey CP, just started doing my Inspecting and Testing course at college this week so can give you a little guidance.

Ideally need some more info, where does the feed from the house to the outer building terminate at? Is it an MCB/ fuse or fed off a separate RCD in the main house? What rating is it? What size is the cable?

You can run a couple of sockets out of the exsisting one but ideally you would want some sort of protection such as an RCD in there. A mini C.C.U with an RCD and a couple of MCBs (32amp sockets, 6amp lights) would make an ideal installation but the main feed needs to the outer building needs to be sufficient. I would personally want it to be 6mm mininmum for peace of mind but it does depend what you'll be running.

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2010, 10:41:25 am »

Quoting: ianjpage

what rated fuse / circuit breaker is on the feed to the outhouse sockets?

Quoting: Andy

What rating is it? What size is the cable?

Not sure, I will have to look tonight and post back.

Quoting: Andy

Hey CP, just started doing my Inspecting and Testing course at college this week so can give you a little guidance.

A man of all trades

Quoting: ianjpage

also does the lighting in outhouse have own feed or does it come off same wire?

Quoting: Andy

where does the feed from the house to the outer building terminate at?

I THINK, the first set of sockets, from what I can work out it looks like he (the builder) has just split the wire to feed, lights and sockets in the outhouse

So basically, from the main fusebox mounted in the garage, I flick the fuse to the 'OFF' position (that's the single fuse for that wire and not the entire board) and it cuts all power to the outhouse. I THINK that one fuse has ONE wire coming from it, so I am assuming there is only one wire feeding the outhouse which in-turn feeds the sockets and lights (currently two big flourcents).

Quoting: Andy

but it does depend what you'll be running.

Looking to run, two computers, a TV, printer, phones, oil radiator, possibly another heater and possibly a Husky fridge

So, quite a lot!

Andy · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2010, 12:22:46 pm »

Yarp, that is quite potentially a large load. Couple of other q's...

Do you have re-wireable fuses or MCBs in the main consumer unit?

How long is the cable run from supply to new out house?

Is it just a twin and earth (if so hopefully in some trunking or conduit) feed or is it Steel Wire Armour feed?

What power is the fridge? The heaters you're on about are they the 2KW ones from the other thread?

Sounds like you've had a high plain drifter whack that lot in. Like I said above ideally you should have separate protection for the lighting and sockets.

This is what I would do, assuming you have a CCU with MCB breakers.

Fit 1 x 32amp MCB* in main CCU -> 6mm SWA to outhouse -> terminate in mini CCU with 100mA* RCD -> 1 x 32amp MCB* for sockets 1 x 6amp MCB* for flurs.
*types and rating need to be confirmed from BS 7671 regs (not to hand)

If you feel confident doing it it's a nice DIY project, but with new legislation and the like, any new circuit added to an existing installation requires certification (Inspection and Testing

)

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2010, 12:39:15 pm »

Thanks for the information Andy

Quoting: Andy

Is it just a twin and earth (if so hopefully in some trunking or conduit) feed or is it Steel Wire Armour feed?

Quoting: Andy

Do you have re-wireable fuses or MCBs in the main consumer unit?

Not sure, would a picture help?

Quoting: Andy

How long is the cable run from supply to new out house?

Probably about 10 metres

Quoting: Andy

any new circuit added to an existing installation requires certification

So, are you saying that I couldn't split into the existing wiring and run some new wire to sockets without certification?

Or do you mean if you are putting in a new 'protected' circuit with MCB etc which then feeds all the sockets / lights etc.

Andy · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2010, 02:00:56 pm »

The addition of sockets I don't believe would be a problem. How safe they are when you first load them up in winter however could be a different story though.

If it were me personally I would separate the two circuits, for peace of mind, safety and because as it stands it doesn't comply with Regs. I would also check what protection you do have at the main board. Is your house covered by an RCD at all? If not external sockets to the main building should be, its almost the same as running a lawnmower outside. Then see if the current supply cabling to the outer house is sufficient. A 10m run you will get away with 2.5 but 4mm SWA or 6mm again would offer peace of mind on heavy loaded winters day when you have two 2kW heaters and a fridge running.

It's not all as easy as it seems at first and a lot of regulations and certification have been brought in simply because people are getting killed by things like running lights off of sockets.

Andy · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2010, 02:06:12 pm »

Btw to answer your questions, yes to the pics, would be grand for identifying them.

I believe the rule is additions to a circuit as long as they are fit and within regs DO NOT require certification, while a complete new circuit (what I'm suggesting) DOES require certifying.

art b · « **Reply #8 on:** September 27, 2010, 05:05:00 pm »

the certification is all in the part p element of electrical installations, although an aweful lot of stuff is done without it...

http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=179546&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

F Body · « **Reply #9 on:** September 27, 2010, 05:07:22 pm »

MKB - So much more than just a car forum

Andy · « **Reply #10 on:** September 27, 2010, 06:57:38 pm »

Quoting: art b

the certification is all in the part p element of electrical installations, although an aweful lot of stuff is done without it.

Literally at college now, just covered this and it's all well and good not certificating until something goes wrong, someone gets hurt or worst someone dies. As it states, ignorance is no excuse and the only defence for someone is that they took every possible precaution, certify is a precaution.

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #11 on:** September 28, 2010, 08:49:47 am »

Quoting: F Body

MKB - So much more than just a car forum

I know, great isn't it

Quoting: Andy

Btw to answer your questions, yes to the pics, would be grand for identifying them

Okay some pictures:

I was wrong, there is another fuse box in the house and a second one in the garage.

So in the house we have:

The fuse 'garage' I assume has been shortened from 'garage fuse box' then goes to the garage fuse box which looks like this:

It looks like the power goes into this box and is then split to the various outputs. The outhouse is fed from the far right switch called 'Con T Shed' (for some reason).

The wires that go in and out of the fuse box are all 10mm wide. They are what I would call fat wires as they are thin on one side and fat across the main part. The thin bit I would say is about 5mm

The wire is buried under the garden and goes into the outhouse. The first point of contact I can see is this socket and switch.

The switch controls the main two florecents (currently disconnected).

There is also this switch on the wall which used to control the pool table light the previous owner had in there (currently just wires ouf of the celling).

There is also one more socket set at the other end of the outhouse. There are no visible junction boxes or fuseboxes. It looks like he has just 'piggy-backed' the wiring to the various outputs.

Thanks for any help Andy / guys

Just for reference, this is how the outhouse is looking right now.

Yes, that is chipboard on the wall instead of plasterboard. Yes I am attempting to 'joint 'n mud' chipboard. No, don't ask.

I am just trying to make what is already built as good as possible

Roadkill · « **Reply #12 on:** September 28, 2010, 09:05:55 am »

F.Y.I - I know nothing about electrics so I'll sit back and just watch this one.

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #13 on:** September 28, 2010, 09:39:41 am »

Quoting: Roadkill

F.Y.I - I know nothing about electrics so I'll sit back and just watch this one.

You loose title of 'Head DIY Dude' then I'm afraid.

Big Mouse · « **Reply #14 on:** September 28, 2010, 09:54:58 am »

Quoting: Roadkill

F.Y.I - I know nothing about electrics so I'll sit back and just watch this one.

I've just rewired the lounge and conservatory at home, and I'm fairly comfortable with electrics, but I know enough to suggest you get a sparky into delve into what has actually been done in your outhouse.

With the greatest respect to CP, if you can't identify the difference between 2.5 and 1.5 t&e cable, then this job is going to be beyond you. Seriously dude, get help on site rather than remotely via a forum, this shit can kill you or your family if you get it wrong

VIPER · « **Reply #15 on:** September 28, 2010, 10:05:46 am »

If one of those cables is the input to that fuse box ? I would sujest the input will need upgrading....

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #16 on:** September 28, 2010, 10:08:24 am »

Quoting: Big Mouse

With the greatest respect to CP, if you can't identify the difference between 2.5 and 1.5 t&e cable, then this job is going to be beyond you. Seriously dude, get help on site rather than remotely via a forum, this shit can kill you or your family if you get it wrong

Well put bud and to be honest exactly what I was going to do, I just wanted an idea of exactly what modifications were needed and rough costs involved before getting a proper electrician in.

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #17 on:** September 28, 2010, 10:13:46 am »

Quoting: VIPER

If one of those cables is the input to that fuse box ? I would sujest the input will need upgrading....

I am pretty sure it is.

Andy · « **Reply #18 on:** September 28, 2010, 12:04:10 pm »

Quoting: Big Mouse

I've just rewired the lounge and conservatory at home, and I'm fairly comfortable with electrics, but I know enough to suggest you get a sparky into delve into what has actually been done in your outhouse.

With the greatest respect to CP, if you can't identify the difference between 2.5 and 1.5 t&e cable, then this job is going to be beyond you. Seriously dude, get help on site rather than remotely via a forum, this shit can kill you or your family if you get it wrong

/\ /\ /\

This

That looks potentially nasty and bodged.

I would probably say a sparky would come in and want to take out what you have in the outhouse. Check the wiring coming into the garage board to see that it's sufficient. Check what the cable going to the outhouse is like (I hope whoever put it in hasn't just buried t+e under the path...).

If you plan what you want and where you want it, I reckon theres a days work in fitting, and in reality that should then be certified as it would be a major overhaul of a circuit on the main board. Again, whether this happens in the real world depends on what sort of sparky you get in.

hope that helps.

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #19 on:** September 28, 2010, 12:18:06 pm »

Roger that

Cheers guys, will let you know when a sparky has had a peak.

Big Mouse · « **Reply #20 on:** September 28, 2010, 12:28:46 pm »

You'll need to get it certified if you ever want to sell the house in the future. Any buyer nowadays will want to see certificates for any new electrical work, over and above an additional socket here or there, to an outbuilding. Just ask the sparky if he is 'part p' registered

As Andy says, plan out what you want, single/double sockets wherever you want them plus lighting. Let the sparks know if you want anything else like outlets for electric fires etc and make sure you know the output, i.e.watts, of each item you'll have in there. If you decide you'd like a couple of fan heaters and a kettle to keep you warm in the winter he'll need to know that!

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #21 on:** October 26, 2010, 07:22:55 am »

Got a pro (no not hooker

) coming to fit it all this Saturday

£250 was the cheapest we found, but considering all the faffing around re-routing the existing wiring, the running to a consumer unit, then running trunking and fitting sockets etc, I thought that was pretty good.

He said it needs:

• Uprated fuse for main box (20amp)
• Rerouting the exsisting wiring, running a few more to a switch near the door
• New Consumer unit with a 8amp and 16amp circuits for lights and sockets
• Trunking
• Sockets
• Even putting in a wire for us to run a security light outside

Cunning Plan · « **Reply #22 on:** October 26, 2010, 07:28:17 am »

BTW, this is kind of what it looks like at the moment:

Before

Current

All still really untidy and bits to finish, but a lot of the finishing needs to wait until the electricitian has done his job - then we can start moving furniture into place etc.

TBH, the picture makes it look nicer than it is, when you see it up close it isn't as smooth as I wanted BUT then I was working with CHIPBOARD on the wall and straight-edge plasterboard on the celling

Roadkill · « **Reply #23 on:** October 26, 2010, 07:34:10 am »

Quoting: Cunning Plan

£250 was the cheapest we found, but considering all the faffing around re-routing the existing wiring, the running to a consumer unit, then running trunking and fitting sockets etc, I thought that was pretty good.

That's not bad at all.

Andy · « **Reply #24 on:** October 26, 2010, 07:36:14 am »

Did he say if he was certificating it as well? If not find out as it's now an important piece of paper to get for any work carried out. You should get a Minor Works certificate if he does.

Sorry to sound all anal, but cheap is cheap, but doesn't always mean safe and without a certificate you have no come back if anything happens later down the line.