Forum Information => Questions and Queries => Topic started by: Cunning Plan on November 04, 2013, 08:49:13 am
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 04, 2013, 08:49:13 am
Okay so the old Cherokee at 149,000 has a little noise issue first thing in the morning, where on idle it sounds like a rattling chain-type-noise.
After a day at work, coming back in the evening it doesn't seem as noticeable and when the engine is warm, you cannot hear it at all.
I am assuming it is one of the belt-pullys with a worn bearing? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/huh.gif)
Any other suggestions? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/pokey.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Incursus on November 04, 2013, 10:01:44 am
Ghost of Christmas past? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
or timing chain.. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 04, 2013, 10:41:50 am
Quoting: Incursus
or timing chain..
There is no timing belt or chain on it as it is an OHV engine, so I know it isn't that. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Unless there is a small chain connecting the cam to the crank and it is driven by that instead of a direct drive.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/help.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on November 04, 2013, 11:11:28 am
get a long screw driver or piece of wood, and place it on various parts of the engine, with ya earole on the other end and try to locate roughly where the noise is coming from..
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 04, 2013, 11:29:59 am
Quoting: art b
get a long screw driver or piece of wood, and place it on various parts of the engine, with ya earole on the other end and try to locate roughly where the noise is coming from..
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/plusone.gif)
Quoting: Cunning Plan
Unless there is a small chain connecting the cam to the crank and it is driven by that instead of a direct drive.
I'd be shocked if there wasn't a chain in there . . . (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 04, 2013, 12:46:16 pm
Quoting: Incursus
or timing chain..
Quoting: Cunning Plan
Unless there is a small chain connecting the cam to the crank and it is driven by that instead of a direct drive.
Quoting: Roadkill
I'd be shocked if there wasn't a chain in there . . .
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/down.gif) I hope it is not that (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/sad.gif)
Quoting: art b
with ya earole on the other end and try to locate roughly where the noise is coming from..
Roger that, I'll do it when I'm not rushing around for work and can take a proper look at it (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/rolleyes.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 04, 2013, 01:03:07 pm
Quoting: Cunning Plan
I've just checked the manual and there is:
Scratch that, that was the wrong engine. The XJ had two variants of the 2.5 litre engine, one was Petrol and the other was Diesel (my one). The image above is for the Petrol engine and I have just checked the correct Diesel version:
There is no timing chain! (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif) (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/up.gif)
So, that leaves one of the pulleys again (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/smirk.gif) (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/confused.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 04, 2013, 01:19:56 pm
What an odd set-up. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Quoting: Cunning Plan
I'll do it when I'm not rushing around for work and can take a proper look at it
Then we'll go from there. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/wink.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Incursus on November 04, 2013, 01:28:32 pm
Quoting: Incursus
Ghost of Christmas past?
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/rtfm.gif)
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 04, 2013, 01:38:00 pm
Blaady hell, my gear hobber at work has a less intricate set up than that!
Yeah, you need to localise this a bit more and go from there. Do just make sure someone hasn't left anything loose in the bay though.
I had a really annoying intermittent vibration in my car in the bay. Ages and ages it took to find until one day I noticed that the engine cover was just touching the inlet manifold and at certain RPMs it would just be enough to tap away making a vibration noise.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Incursus on November 04, 2013, 02:11:09 pm
Are you sure it's from the engine bay? I had a loose bit of exhaust heat shield on the old Mondy that I first thought to be a nasty rattle from the engine..
It didn't seem to be protecting anything so I just tore it off.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 05, 2013, 09:01:56 am
Quoting: Andy
Blaady hell, my gear hobber at work has a less intricate set up than that!
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
Quoting: Andy
Yeah, you need to localise this a bit more and go from there
Quoting: Roadkill
Then we'll go from there.
Roger.
Quoting: Incursus
Are you sure it's from the engine bay? I had a loose bit of exhaust
There was a rattling from the first exhaust support mount / bracket that had corroded through. I took it off and it's on my 'buy-list' to get and fit a replacement. This is defiantly from the engine though (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Quoting: Incursus
It didn't seem to be protecting anything so I just tore it off.
I took a video first thing this morning so you can hear it too. It is more noticeable from the bottom of the engine when I move the camera down. It's almost a cross between a squeak and a rattling chain. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 05, 2013, 03:06:37 pm
Going by the position you were when you could hear it most it definitely sounds like it's coming from the pulleys.
If it's rattling like that I'd *guess* that it's not a major load-bearing pulley (ie not the cam or crank) . . . My guess would be vacuum pump as it's a dry-running pulley.
The other likely candidate is the oil pump but that's below the oil line so would probably be leaking oil quite badly.
. . . Or it could be none of the above.
I sometimes use a 3/4" piece of rubber hose to find engine rattles . . . like how Art said but being flexible you can get it "in" further . . . you'll need to press the end hard up against the engine, though, as all you'll hear otherwise is the air turbulence in the engine bay (Think stethoscope) - the other end tight over your ear. It helps to block your other ear, too.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 05, 2013, 03:17:04 pm
Quoting: Roadkill
I sometimes use a 3/4" piece of rubber hose to find engine rattles . . . like how Art said but being flexible you can get it "in" further . . . you'll need to press the end hard up against the engine, though, as all you'll hear otherwise is the air turbulence in the engine bay (Think stethoscope) - the other end tight over your ear. It helps to block your other ear, too.
Thanks buddy, but at the risk of sounding stupid, how do I do this with a spinning pulley? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/huh.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 05, 2013, 03:37:37 pm
Are all the pulleys open or is there a cover over them (I'd guessed a cover) ?
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 05, 2013, 05:32:47 pm
All auxiliary-drive pulleys are open, driven by one serpentine rubber belt as shown below:
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on November 05, 2013, 08:51:25 pm
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
you should remove the ancillary/serp belt, to see if its anything external driven by the belt, pumps,alt, fans etc.. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/wink.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 10, 2013, 12:17:13 pm
Okay I made sure I had a look at this yesterday.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/mechanic2.gif)
Quoting: art b
you should remove the ancillary/serp belt,
I went for this first and it totally confirmed that it is one of the pulleys driven by the drive / aux belt, because as soon as I took the belt off and ran the engine, it was the quietest it has ever been.
I put the belt back on and it seemed a 'bit' better, but I am not sure if that was because by that point it had warmed up and the noise is always quieter when it's warm. So, I went back out first thing this morning to start it again and the noise is still there. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/down.gif)
Whilst doing some exploring around the engine, I did notice that the water pump is seeping a little bit, so I'll have to replace that, hopefully at the same time as replacing whatever is making this noise as I will have most of the front-end apart. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/sad2.gif)
I have to say, it sounds like it is coming more from the fan pulley or the centre of the selection of pulley-wheels. Although, it's just too hard to tell exactly with all the noises of the engine. I did try putting a screw-driver against the non-rotating parts of pulleys I could get to, but it didn't really help. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/sad.gif) Another issue is I cannot put the belt back on to run certain components at a time to narrow the issue down because the belt runs literally everything, it's a beast of a belt. It's either all on, or all off. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
The fan is a thermal viscous fan and I am wondering if anyone knows if they usually have the noise issues mine has? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)
I think I will end up having to do this, take everything apart, except the fan pulley, then run the engine again, if there is no noise, then it must be the 'bimetallic' spring in the viscous fan.
I drove to Norfolk and back Friday / Saturday morning and it's fine (touch wood), but it's just annoyingly noisy first thing in the morning. Also, if it is the fan, rather than it breaking and the engine over-heating, I think I have to try and fix it.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/help.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on November 10, 2013, 12:59:57 pm
on my old audi the belt tensioner was worn,
i took it of and lubed it then it was quieter,then fitted a new one,
its possibly one of the parts thet does not get changed...(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 10, 2013, 01:29:19 pm
Quoting: art b
on my old audi the belt tensioner was worn,
Yah, I remember your thread about it and that was a LOT of work (In fact, I even looked the thread up to find what your issue was before posting this thread).
I am going to call Central Auto's tomorrow to try and get a price for the tensioner. If it is not too bad, I might just replace it anyway along with the water pump O-ring seal / AND OR / water pump (dependant on cost).
As I say though, I am sure it is more from the centre of the engine than the left (as you look at the engine bay, which is where the tensioner is). (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Annoying, when I have available 'tinkering' time, I want to be working on the bus instead (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/boohoo.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on November 10, 2013, 06:06:36 pm
Quoting: Cunning Plan
Yah, I remember your thread about it and that was a LOT of work (In fact, I even looked the thread up to find what your issue was before posting this thread).
that was the waterpump driven by the cambelt....(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/wink.gif)
it made a grinding n scraping noise.. it was a well collapsed bearing ...
somehere in here ...(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/shame.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 10, 2013, 09:05:35 pm
Vorsprung der ******* hell how does this go back together?!
To be honest apart from noticing the leaky water pump, if everything is working and nothing is losing/using fluids, just live with it? My old Mondy always sounded like shit first thing in the morning.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 10, 2013, 10:02:39 pm
Quoting: Andy
My old Mondy always sounded like shit first thing in the morning.
My Mondey sounds like $hit all the time . . . always has done. It baffles the guys in the MoT station each year when it rocks up with another 25-30,000 miles on it, still going strong and still sounding $hit !
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/lol.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on November 10, 2013, 10:34:31 pm
hey cp did you wiggle the pulleys on each item to see it there was play in the bearing or if it grumbled when spun,
you could add load on to each item alternator air con power steering, etc
to see if the noise increases with any of them...(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on November 10, 2013, 10:35:32 pm
Quoting: Andy
To be honest apart from noticing the leaky water pump, if everything is working and nothing is losing/using fluids, just live with it? My old Mondy always sounded like shit first thing in the morning.
eventually it will reveal itself...(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/up.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 11, 2013, 10:22:15 am
Quoting: Andy
To be honest apart from noticing the leaky water pump, if everything is working and nothing is losing/using fluids, just live with it? My old Mondy always sounded like shit first thing in the morning.
This isn't bad advice really, because as you say, it isn't effecting the engine performance and it is just an annoying noise on the first cold-start. Once warm, it just sounds like a old-skool Diesel / tractor as usual (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/cowboy.gif)
Quoting: art b
did you wiggle the pulleys on each item to see it there was play in the bearing or if it grumbled when spun,
No I didn't (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/sad.gif)
The guys on Jeep-Club suggested to spray some WD40 on the back of one pulley at a time to try to eliminate good pulleys and hopefully find the source of the noise. I will try that next and if that does not work, when I am replacing the water pump O-Ring seal, as I will have to take the drive-belt off to do it, it will give me the opportunity to give each one a wiggle. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Quoting: art b
you could add load on to each item
I have tried this and it just sounds the same: Rattley-chains in the morning, which is louder when it is cold outside, then fine when it is warm or on second / third start of the day.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/turbo.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 13, 2013, 03:55:06 pm
Has anyone got any idea how I can find out what size water pump is in my engine without taking it apart which will mean draining the system, then once I know which one it is, I will need to put it back together with the leaking pump, fill it back up with AF and coolant, bleed it, go and get the new pump, then do it all over again to fit the new pump. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/down.gif) (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/sad2.gif)
There are apparently two choices of pump for my engine - 70mm and 76mm. They are both special order and non-refundable, so I cannot buy both and take back the one that does not fit. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif) (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/smirk.gif)
Any help lads?
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/help.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 13, 2013, 04:07:32 pm
Do you know what the engine code is? Can you decode it from the RPO tag?
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 13, 2013, 04:18:54 pm
At just under £80 for both, I'd take the hit, then flog the other one on eBay...
Think about the saving in AF and just the nastiness of doing a coolant change in Winter.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 13, 2013, 04:19:53 pm
I wouldn't have thought the water pump would be making this noise. Water doesn't lubricate so the noise wouldn't go away once the engine warmed up.
Unless you can be more sure I'd run it another week or two and just periodically give it a visual check-over to make sure nothing is about to fall off.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
EDIT - Although :
Quoting: Andy
At just under £80 for both, I'd take the hit, then flog the other one on eBay...
Is a good idea at that price.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 13, 2013, 04:26:12 pm
I don't think he thinks its the water pump, he did mention somewhere further up there that the water pump is leaking, so I guess he's going the whole 9 yards and replacing that, plus the gasket.
As, to me having no heard the video (which I missed before) sounds like a shagged bearing. Now that could go on doing that for ages, or eventually seize up solid, but for the time being, as long as you hear it, you know its moving! (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
ETA:
Quoting: Cunning Plan
Whilst doing some exploring around the engine, I did notice that the water pump is seeping a little bit, so I'll have to replace that, hopefully at the same time as replacing whatever is making this noise as I will have most of the front-end apart.
ETA Again:
While thinking of eBay, check out the option on there, as EuroCarParts are registered on there and sell their bits for cheaper through there. Also you'll get the eBay guarantee, so in theory could send it back.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 14, 2013, 08:33:12 am
Quoting: Andy
Do you know what the engine code is
I'm sure I can find out.. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Quoting: Andy
the RPO tag?
What and how? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/huh.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 14, 2013, 02:54:17 pm
Quoting: Cunning Plan
What and how?
That'll probably be behind the lower portion of the windscreen, near the cowl on the left-hand side.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 14, 2013, 08:55:18 pm
Right, back from a way-too-busy day at work (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/rolleyes.gif) and can reply properly now.
Quoting: Andy
At just under £80 for both, I'd take the hit, then flog the other one on eBay...
Where did you find these? What website is that? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/huh.gif)
Good find btw. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/thumbsup.gif)
Quoting: Andy
Think about the saving in AF and just the nastiness of doing a coolant change in Winter.
I don't mind doing another coolant change as the cooling system on the Diesel 2.5 needs a lot of looking after, so it should be beneficial. Although, it is very annoying as I only did it a month ago or so (It gets two flushes a year).
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/baby.gif)
Quoting: Roadkill
I wouldn't have thought the water pump would be making this noise. Water doesn't lubricate so the noise wouldn't go away once the engine warmed up.
Quit playing with your foyer shed and keep up
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/pokey.gif)
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
Quoting: Andy
I don't think he thinks its the water pump, he did mention somewhere further up there that the water pump is leaking, so I guess he's going the whole 9 yards and replacing that, plus the gasket.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/plusone.gif)
Quoting: Andy
While thinking of eBay....
Going to take a look now (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/ebayanim.gif)
Quoting: Roadkill
That'll probably be behind the lower portion of the windscreen, near the cowl on the left-hand side.
Got it, but all of the websites I have tried that decode the VIN, just show me what I already know - 2.5 Diesel, 1999 RHD etc.. Unfortunately, no engine code / water pump information. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/nono2.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 14, 2013, 09:03:38 pm
Quoting: Cunning Plan
Where did you find these? What website is that?
Eurocar Parts dude, bunged in the rough details from your other thread, came up with the two options. Like I said though, they also trade on eBay so may be able to find them cheaper on there. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/wink.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 15, 2013, 09:31:08 am
Quoting: Andy
Eurocar Parts dude
Dude, I fecking love you. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/SUCK.gif)
Called ECP this morning and ordered both pumps for £50, plus they will accept back whichever unit is incorrect! (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/up.gif)
However, they did explain that they have a similar policy as CAS, where if the parts are not in 'company stock' and they have had to order them in specially, they cannot return them to their suppliers unless they are faulty parts, not if someone ordered them incorrectly, which in-turn means I could not simply return the wrong one. I can appreciate why, but it isn't that helpful when you're in my situation. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/smirk.gif)
But, the ones ECP have are from their 'stock', so, I'm collecting them tonight and I'll fit one of them tomorrow morning, give the cooling-system a flush and re-fill and hopefully eliminate the pump-seeping issue. I will have a further play with other pulleys whilst I am at it to try and find this rattling noise.
I have an idea to attach each pulley in-turn to the crank until I find the noisy one, however, I am not totally sure how. Perhaps some heavy duty cord? Not sure.. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/mechanic2.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 15, 2013, 10:07:36 am
I reckon once you have the main serp belt off and you try spinning a few of the, you'll see what is what, and what seems knackered.
No worries about ECP, they've been more than helpful to me on several occasions. Used to use a small outfit at the end of our a round but a new guy started running it and it promptly went broke. Haven't had a single issue with ECP.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/cool.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on November 15, 2013, 10:27:37 am
Quoting: Cunning Plan
I have an idea to attach each pulley in-turn to the crank until I find the noisy one, however, I am not totally sure how. Perhaps some heavy duty cord? Not sure..
use ya tights..(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/wink.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 15, 2013, 11:08:05 am
Quoting: art b
use ya tights..
And ladder them? I don't think so honey. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/gayfight.gif)
Not a bad idea... I might have to stop at Tesco on the way back and check out the girl's section (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif) (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Incursus on November 15, 2013, 11:25:41 am
Quoting: Cunning Plan
check out the girl's section
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/rofls.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 19, 2013, 08:43:47 am
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/funny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 19, 2013, 09:28:31 am
Quoting: Cunning Plan
Called ECP this morning
Not overly impressed with ECP. I arrived to pick them up on Friday after work to be met by a guy on the front-desk who I had to tell 4 times that I was there to pick up a water pump. The conversation went like this:
Me: "Hi I am here to collect water pumps for a Jeep Cherokee" ECP: "Ok" Me: "The registration is X" ECP (typing away): "Okay Sir, so you are here to collect oil pump." Me: "No, water pumps" ECP: "Okay, what car is it" Me (thinking WTF): "It's a Jeep Cherokee" ECP: "Washer pump for a Jeep Cherokee" Me: "No!!! Water Pump for a Jeep Cherokee, I called earlier, there should be two ordered for me, I spoke to Robin, is he available to speak to?" ECP: "Water Pump, oohkay, what's the vehicle reg?" Me: "It's X"
Sure, it could have been an off-day for him or I could admit that perhaps he didn't understand because of how I said it, but seriously, dude (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/banned.gif)
Anyway, after that, all I wanted to do was get in the car and get on the road to travel to Norfolk (where all my tools are) before the traffic gets heavy, so I did not check the boxes.
The next morning I got up to change the water pump, but experience told me, before everything is apart, I should check the boxes to ensure that they are the correct parts. The boxes were extremely damaged, I think both of them had been used as footballs. Not filling me with confidence, I decided to check for damage and after looking at each pump I noticed that neither had the vital O-Ring seal included, even after specifically asking EuroCar Parts (<for the benefit of Google) on the phone before I ordered if they included the O-Ring seals, which I was given the response of 'Yeah they should do... yeah'.
To be honest, I could take a small amount of the blame as you could say I should have checked whilst at ECP, but after dealing with the challenging chap on the front desk and after being told that they would include the seals, I just didn't think of it at the time.
So, first thing was spent driving into Wisbech to the Hydraulic engineer to get some seals made. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/rolleyes.gif)
Fortunately, they were open on the Saturday and made some up for me within minutes. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/clap3.gif)
Then, in an attempt to get at the water pump, I took most of the front end apart, but I still could not get at the bolt that was at the tightest angle.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/mechanic2.gif)
I always start with the hardest fixing first, as you know if you can get that out, you can do the rest, otherwise you disturb the seal by loosening the easy ones, then discovering that you cannot get to the hardest one (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/mad.gif)
Bearing in mind that it is not a leak, it is a 'seep', I thought it is not urgent and I would have to suck up the wasted hours taking everything apart, to put it all back together again and fill it back up with coolant, then bleed the system, without actually repairing the water-pump seal with the intention of attempting it again with an adjustable-headed ratchet spanner. I did not really have a choice as the Cherokee is my daily driver and I needed the car for work (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/confused.gif)
So the plan is to fit the new pump when I am confident that I can get the bolts out.
HOWEVER, I noticed, especially this morning since it was 0-2 degrees and the noise is usually at its loudest when it is cold, the engine noise had gone (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/huh.gif) It sounded completely normal (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/confused.gif) (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)
So I am assuming, it was something un-important rattling around, perhaps near the radiator where it expands and contracts with heat. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/huh.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 19, 2013, 10:04:29 am
Did you not do the hammer test first?
You know, you go round the various areas where the noise is hitting bits to see if it stop/gets worse/goes bang? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
Regards ECP, thats a shame. I know they don't employ the most knowledgeable staff, but my local one has two or three guys that are ex-dealership parts people (particularly Ford) so know a few things others don't, very helpful with my Focus at least.
Again, the parts getting kicked around, can't say I've had that, but I would've personally rejected them on the spot or at least gone over the contents there. There is a sign at my local one that tells the clerk to check the box with the customer before signing for it.
Good call on the trying the hardest bolt first! So many situations where I wish I'd adopted that approach before getting stuck! Guess it could be a front off job so you can get access to it. That or get it started with a cold chisel? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Incursus on November 19, 2013, 10:35:47 am
Quoting: Andy
Did you not do the hammer test first
Don't forget the Duct tape! (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/up.gif)
There's nothing that can't be fixed/bodged with a Hammer, Duct tape and WD40. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/rock.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 19, 2013, 10:40:33 am
Quoting: Incursus
There's nothing that can't be fixed/bodged with a Hammer, Duct tape and WD40.
Engineers flow chart... its just in the trade we use bigger more impressive words...
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 19, 2013, 03:57:04 pm
Quoting: Incursus
Errmm a spanner?
1/2 a point... or lucky guess... hmm (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/cooking.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Incursus on November 19, 2013, 07:55:14 pm
Quoting: Andy
or lucky guess
Part guess, part vague memory recall, part logic...mostly guess (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/confused.gif) (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/lol.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 26, 2013, 08:36:01 pm
Okay engineers, a question for you (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/stir.gif)
The water pump pulley-wheel is fixed to the pump with x3 Torx or Spline screws, I can't remember which. It looks a little like this:
All of them look a little corroded, so I am considering removing the water-pump from the block, then drilling out the pulley-wheel screws and replacing them with nuts and bolts with a good allowance of locktite.
Are there any issues with me doing this? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)
I should point out that I need the pulley-wheel to go on to the new pump.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on November 26, 2013, 10:52:35 pm
i would imagine that bolts with spring washers will suffice ..(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: F Body on November 27, 2013, 07:47:54 am
Quoting: art b
bolts with spring washers will suffice .
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/plusone.gif)
Quoting: Cunning Plan
with a good allowance of locktite.
:plus2:
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/diy.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 27, 2013, 10:33:17 am
Quoting: Cunning Plan
All of them look a little corroded, so I am considering removing the water-pump from the block, then drilling out the pulley-wheel screws and replacing them with nuts and bolts with a good allowance of locktite.
No issues, providing you have clearance for the longer bolts.
Seems overkill if they're just a bit corroded, though . . . could end up being an unnecessary can of worms.
Can you not just re-tap the holes and wire-brush the bolts ?
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on November 27, 2013, 12:33:17 pm
Quoting: F Body
:plus2:
Quoting: art b
i would imagine that bolts with spring washers will suffice ..
No issues, providing you have clearance for the longer bolts.
Yes, there is quite a bit of space.
Quoting: Roadkill
could end up being an unnecessary can of worms.
(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/confused.gif)
Quoting: Roadkill
Can you not just re-tap the holes and wire-brush the bolts ?
The bolts / screws are the problem, I think I will have to get the pulley in my vice and drill it out as the head seems 'fragile'. One of them is not rounded though.... Yet! I noticed it seemed to be giving and not in a good way, so I stopped attempting to take the pulley off in situ with the engine.
Then I thought that bolts and nuts would be much more secure and better should I have to remove it again (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on November 27, 2013, 12:42:06 pm
Quoting: Cunning Plan
The bolts / screws are the problem, I think I will have to get the pulley in my vice and drill it out as the head seems 'fragile'. One of them is not rounded though.... Yet! I noticed it seemed to be giving and not in a good way, so I stopped attempting to take the pulley off in situ with the engine.
Then I thought that bolts and nuts would be much more secure and better should I have to remove it again
Fair enough - so not just corroded but actually pretty fooked.
Yeah, go with bolts, nuts and spring washers . . . I'd suggest you'd NOT want to use Loctite . . unnecessary, IMHO.
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 27, 2013, 01:06:05 pm
Quoting: Roadkill
Yeah, go with bolts, nuts and spring washers . . . I'd suggest you'd NOT want to use Loctite . . unnecessary, IMHO.
+1
Decent set of spring washers, jobs a good'un.
Haven't got any photos of the final install, but when we upgraded the cooling fan and radiator on the Mustang we just pulled out some some stock ?UNF bolt and spring washers.
Which makes me wonder if a previous owner had the pump off at some point and replaced mine with screws rather than bolts, or the other way around. (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy on November 29, 2013, 11:06:04 am
I'm getting a bit lost in this, using terminology such as screws and bolts.
So your pulley is bolted on to the propellar shaft of the pump. That is via threaded holes on the shaft, with no nuts.
You're planning on taking the whole pump off, drilling out the bolts, then replacing the bolts that have been drilled out with bolts and nuts?
Is that right?
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on December 02, 2013, 01:22:14 pm
Ah sorry dude!
Right, when I say, 'screw' I mean a bolt with a spline-type head.
I cannot find a really good picture of it right now and I can't take one (in the office), but it is quite similar to this Torx one:
So your pulley is bolted on to the propellar shaft of the pump. That is via threaded holes on the shaft, with no nuts.
Correct!
Quoting: Andy
You're planning on taking the whole pump off, drilling out the bolts, then replacing the bolts that have been drilled out with bolts and nuts?
Correct!
Quoting: Andy
Is that right?
Am I right? (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/huh.gif) (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on December 09, 2013, 11:53:58 am
you sorted it yet ...(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/pokey.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Cunning Plan on December 09, 2013, 12:10:27 pm
Quoting: art b
you sorted it yet ...
Nope (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/sad.gif)
I'm off from December 16, so I can have a good look then. In fact, it is hardly seeping at all now, so I am wondering if it is wise to disturb it at all... (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: art b on December 09, 2013, 01:28:56 pm
you have two options...(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/chiny.gif)
1- if its not broken leave it alone...(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/wink.gif)
2- if its not broken keep on fixing it ..until it is....(http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/rofls.gif)
nb.. i tend to go for no 2 (http://www.mkb.cc/forum/smileys/tongue.gif)
Title: Engine Noise - Any Guesses?
Post by: Roadkill on December 09, 2013, 02:00:08 pm