Roadkill's 1958 Cadillac - PROJECT THREAD

[Roadkill]

Guys,

As mentioned before I'm starting a new thread for the Cadillac.

I plan to keep the old one running for the purposes of spit-balling and general project chit-chat but this thread will be reserved for serious updates, information and pictures.

ALL pictures will be full-size . . I don't intend on thumb-nailing anything so If it's taking time loading at some point, don't complain as it'll all be worth it !

Comments and posts by others are fine, here but I'll delete anything that's too far off topic.



The purpose of this thread is to produce a comprehensive guide to building a car.

I'm going to provide references, suppliers, specifications and contacts for anyone considering going down this route.

Lessons are best learned from other people's mistakes so if I can make the mistakes and save someone else grief then that's fine by me.



I won't be getting my hands dirty until later this year but the project HAS started, elsewhere on the planet.

2014 will see mainly purchasing and planning from me . . .

The first real post will be the new engine specifications - shortly.

For now let's remind ourselves of how she began life :

Model 1958 Cadillac (Series 62) Sedan DeVille (Ext. Deck)
Engine 365ci V8 (1 x 4bbl Rochester)
Transmission 4spd Auto, RWD
C/R = 10.25:1
Power = 310Bhp
Torque = 405@3100
Brakes (Powered) 4 x Drums
Axle Semi-floating, 3.07 ratio
Exhaust full, dual system
Wheels Steel, 8x15

[Cunning Plan]

[Fieldy]

[Andy]

Do you have your new engine specs yet? Willing to publish?

[Roadkill]

I know them, yeah but I'll post them in full when I receive the invoice.

[art b]

nice one.. im in for the ride ..

[Incursus]

Quoting: Roadkill

For now let's remind ourselves of how she began life :

With a road-trip to Kent(?) and a potato.

[Roadkill]

Quoting: Incursus

With a road-trip to Kent(?) and a potato.

And a certain somebody that should've had a sh!t before we left Ashford !

[Incursus]

[Roadkill]

ENGINE SPECS

Bore = 4.35"
Stroke = 4.304"
Displacement = 511.7ci (8.4 litre)
Comp Ratio = 10:1 (Approx)

Block

Cadillac 472/500, Baked and acid-dipped.  Bored to +50 thou & cylinder honed,
Internal drain valley de-burr,
ARP mains studs, ARP head studs, Hex Stainless fixings elsewhere,
All brass freeze plugs,
Surface-decked and align-honed.

Crank (and rotating assembly)

Cadillac 500 crankshaft, Index ground, new bearings,
MTS Forged 6.75" "I" Beam Con Rods (pressed pin), new bearings,
MTS Forged Pistons (machined relief for bigger valves),
MTS One-piece billet Hub/balancer.
Rotating assembly balanced.

Chain / Gears

Cloyes "Street" Full-Roller Gear set.

Valve Train

MTS #15 Camshaft + Hydraulic Lifters (new bearings) -
(RPM range: 2200-5400 / Advertised duration range: 286-295* / Duration @ .050" range: 230-238* / Valve lift range: .520-.540"),
9.985" Push rods.

Rocker assembly

MTS Full Support, adjustable, (1.7 ratio) shaft rocker system.

Heads

MTS Custom Aluminium 76cc "FR" Heads, Serial Matched, CNC Stage 2 Porting,
Supports 380cfm, 2.19 Stainless Intakes Valves, 1.84 Stainless Exhaust Valves, c/w New hardware and springs.

Intake

Hells Gate Hot Rods custom kit.  
Additional parts by Stromberg.
To be custom assembled on-block by Stromberg.

Carburetion (and linkage)

5 x Stromberg (standard) '97 Carburetors @162cfm,
1 x Stromberg (special) '97 Carburetor @162cfm,
Non-progressive (direct) linkage.
To be assembled and set-up by Stromberg.

Gaskets

Felpro.

Oil System

Stock, Cadillac Eldorado (rear) sump pan c/w rear pick-up & rear sump dipstick,
H/D Blueprinted Oil Pump - "G" Style.

Cooling

High-Flow (belt-driven) water pump,
180* thermostat (stock housing).

(Electric fan will be used when building the car)

Fueling

(Electric pump will be used when building the car)

Electrical

MTS (stand-alone) Electronic billet distributor and cap,
MTS E-core Coil,
Accel 8mm Wires,
NGK Spark Plugs.

Valve covers

PML Cast Aluminium raised "Cadillac" script
c/w PCV valve and Breather holes.

Misc

Pulleys - Stock steel,
Alternator - Rebuilt with stock 3-piece brackets,
Starter - New 3.0Hp Mini starter,
P/S Pump - Rebuilt

Transmission

TH400 (Cadillac / BOP) Long Tail, Gearbox,
Street Shifter (TBC),
Stall ~2000 (TBC).


**************************


SUPPLIERS


Maximum Torque Specialties (MTS)

http://www.500cid.com/
 
Marty is the tech guy and who'll be doing the engine build - I met him (online) via one of the Cadillac forums.

He came up with a spec based on my original ramblings and it's grown from there.  I think he was a little reluctant at first (my intake idea does directly conflict with the rest of the motor) but as we've got into it more seemed to realise where I'm coming from . . . Hopefully !

He's at

MTS (West),
13641 John Glenn Rd #B,
Apple Valley,
CA 92308,
USA


Hells Gate Hot Rods

http://www.hellsgatehotrods.com/

I originally spoke to Andy via eBay but later the deal was struck through Stromberg as they - by coincidence - knew him and got me an even better deal.

My limited dealings with Andy have been good . . he's been helpful in getting the custom kit together and wasn't phased when asked to ship to the U.K (not something he normally offers).

He's at

Hells Gate Hot Rods,
1054 Main St,
Viola,
ID 83872,
USA


Stromberg Carburetor

http://www.stromberg-97.com/index.html

I initially contacted Stromberg (who're based in the U.K !!) about some cool mugs that I was after . . . Clive, there, helped me ship 6 over from California and got me a good price on them.  I then had some T-shirts off of him, too.
Momentum was building on the Cadillac-front so I contacted him regarding my stupid intake manifold idea . . . He was helpful and genuinely interested.  
Without going into details on open forum, he's offered me a cracking deal on parts and labour and is taking my old 365ci motor as part payment.

I don't build Hot Rod's everyday but If I did they'd have nothing but '97's on them as these are the kind of guys you want to deal with !

He's at :

Stromberg Carburetor,
Unit 2,
Seven Acres Business Park,
Newbourne Road,
Waldringfield,
Suffolk,
IP12 4PS,
UK


PML (inc)

http://www.yourcovers.com/index.html

I've had no direct dealings with PML as Marty will be contacting them on my behalf, however they're highly regarded and I've never heard a bad word said about them.
EDIT - Forgot to say that many of their parts are officially approved by GM.

They're at :

PML (inc),
201 W. Beach Avenue,
Inglewood,
CA 90302,
USA

[Motorama]

Hell of a spec, Stromberg set up sounds cool, I'm guessing you have plans for getting the power down, steering, stopping and corners as well.

Would possibly be interested in your old transmission depending on price, and maybe other ancillaries you junk.

[Roadkill]

Quoting: Motorama

I'm guessing you have plans for getting the power down

Everyone's telling me to keep the stock axle . . . an LSD for it simply isn't going to happen so I need to rely on better suspension and tyres to transfer the power . . .

Quoting: Motorama

steering

The new engine is a LOT lighter than my stock one . . . there'll also be other minor savings in weight, too which'll improve things.  new suspension will help and I plan to fit a much thicker sway bar.

There's not a lot more on offer, really, without front-clipping it.

Quoting: Motorama

stopping

It'll be getting front discs and modern booster/proportioning valve . . . rear discs would be nice but I have 4 brand new drums and 4 new sets of shoes which would make sense using !!  We'll see.

Quoting: Motorama

corners

Without question, she's getting a Ride Tech kit - HQ Series at the front, Cool rides at the rear.

Quoting: Motorama

Would possibly be interested in your old transmission depending on price, and maybe other ancillaries you junk.

Clive wants the block but I'll confirm what ancillaries he wants closer the time . . . The trans will be available as he's got some manual Lasalle boxes that'll mate-up.

As I said, I've got 4 new drums, 4 sets of shoes, new slaves cylinders, wheel bearings, the brake master cylinder will be available and I have a rebuild kit for this . . . There's other stuff, too which I'll list when I'm preparing to pull the motor (probably around August - I want to get one more year's use out of her if I can).

[Roadkill]

Have updated Engine spec to reflect change from +40 to +50 Thou

EDIT

Quoting: Roadkill (from the other thread)

Watch this :

http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2012-03/the-caddy-500-other-engine-build-up

It's a highly interesting and educational film but why you ask ?

I'll tell you later.

Quoting: Roadkill

but why you ask ?

The heads used on this dyno run are the ones that are going into my build . . . not the same type, no - that actual heads you see in the video !

They're getting new valves and hardware but it did save me some $$$$



I've also asked Marty to take some snaps along the way so I'm hoping to post some pictures within a month.

[Andy]

Wow, what a spec

Can I ask, is there any special reason that one carb is a 'special' while the other 5 are 'standard'? Is there any difference?

[Roadkill]

Quoting: Andy

Can I ask

You may.



Stromberg '97's are old carbs designed for old engines.  As a result there's no option to take-off a "ported vacuum" source for modern HEI distributors (they use the vacuum to advance timing).
The "special" is an option with a custom-cast base which has a "ported" source so I can connect it to my HEI dizzy.

THAT SAID . . . With the camshaft I'm running, combined with everything else MAY mean I'm better off running "manifold vacuum".

It's one of my next questions to ask Marty as it'll effect the intake manifold design (number of ports and positions) . . . They haven't charged me extra for the "special" '97 so there'll be no cost saving.

It's a very confusing subject and many people just see "ported" vacuum as a feeble attempt at emissions control back in the day . . .



EDIT -

I've now asked Marty about this and he advises that, for my application, ported vacuum would give the best idle as manifold vacuum will vary considerably during deceleration to idle.

[Roadkill]

I've been spending far too much time reading lately (!!!) but have been doing my best to make the Cadillac Project flow as smoothly as possible.

I've slowly been researching parts available to improve suspension, brakes, power and drive ability but there's one thing I can't get away from . .

The Cadillac is an old skool "Body-over-frame" design . . . great for insulating you from the noises of the road, but flawed in many other ways.

Not initially a major concern but the more I started to remember the lay-out of the chassis, the more I got concerned . . .

Long story short, Cadillac like most GM branches (but not all) utilised the "revolutionary" X-frame chassis.  It was sold as the cutting edge of design, and probably was ahead of its time for taking corner-to-corner stresses . . .

The REAL reason GM rolled this out was by loosing the side-rails offered on the older ladder-frames, they gained considerable head-room in the cabin, allowing the '57-onward Cadillacs to sit real low, yet still give buckets of headroom.

Great for looks and great for comfort AND the X-frames (with their beefy "spines") were good at resisting twist . . .

But.

With no side rails flex would be a problem . . a REAL problem.

Cadillac (Fisher) got round this by considerably strengthening the rocker-sills, adding structural folds to the floor and putting out-riggers further out to stiffen everything even further.

It worked, I'd say.  My old '58 drives pretty darn well, considering . . .

However, the crucial part everyone at GM was missing was side-impact.

With the frame being essentially in the middle of the car there was (is) only sheet-metal between the passengers and side impacts.

GM later (1963 ish) went back to a ladder-frame design, but with added bracing which covered all bases pretty well . . .

Sooooo I got to thinking . . . .  

Can I add side rails to my existing chassis

Shown below in red :



The only thing I can think that occupies this space is the exhaust (which I plan to re-route anyway) and the park-brake cables (a relatively small hole could be added for these and still maintain integrity).

The benefits ??

i) Obviously, the passengers are greatly protected from side impact.

ii) These would offer an obvious place to mount inertia-reel seat-belts too (not decided on this yet and need to research further)

iii) As an added bonus, the stiffened chassis can only improve handling and  power transfer . . . .

All this and the body would still be a bolt-on (which is what I want to retain).

Comments / opinions very welcome . . . I'm by no means an expert !!!  

[F Body]

Quoting: Roadkill

For now let's remind ourselves of how she began life :

Always a good place to start

EDITED

Sorry, Martyn.

I edited-out the pictures from this post . . . The two girls draped over my Caddy actually give me cold-shivers every time I scroll passed them, so they had to go, I'm afraid.

[F Body]

Or when new, one of 23,989 manufactured that year and I believe the colour is Peacock

[Andy]

Is it weird that I think that chassis looks hot without a body on it?!

Also, that rear suspension, is that shocks and what look like airbags or something? No springs?

[Roadkill]

Air springs were experimental and I believe first offered on the 1958 model.

Unfortunately, they weren't very reliable so got canned.

To answer your question, yes, they're air springs.

Agree re the chassis looking good "naked" there's something very raw about it.

Also - regarding the models shown with my '58 ...... It's a sad day for the future of modelling when your wife looks better draped across the bonnet !!

[Roadkill]

Deposit's been paid for the engine.

Rotating assembly is out for balancing.

Based on discussions, the engine should be finished in early March, with the transmission around the same time . . . .

. . . I'm not rushing him, though.   It means I have to find his money earlier if I do.

[ianjpage]

Quoting: Roadkill

Deposit's been paid for the engine

 sweet - project is technically underway then !!

Quoting: Roadkill

the engine should be finished in early March

Cool, what's the approx delivery timeframe or is that the delivery date

[Roadkill]

I'll see . . . I'll probably make another payment in February, then try and drag the final payment into March.

It'll be shipped to Long Beach, Ca, where it'll be shipped by sea to Felixstowe . . . from there it'll go straight to Stromberg so they can build the intake.

I reckon it'll be here maybe July . . ?  

I don't actually want it until September so I'm not pushing anyone.

[Cunning Plan]

Quoting: Roadkill

It'll be shipped to Long Beach, Ca, where it'll be shipped by sea to Felixstowe . . . from there it'll go straight to Stromberg so they can build the intake.

Exciting.

[Roadkill]

Pinged an email off regarding brakes . . . question is do I want to fork out another $1000 just to say I've got rear discs !!???



Suspension next.